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ST's avatar

I absolutely agree that peer effects are really important, but I’d suggest that some of the vibe difference being observed here may come from the particular way that Union (and some similar colleges) builds its class. I’m currently at a slightly lower ranked liberal arts college with a significantly higher racial, ethnic and socioeconomic diversity than Union (having attended a similar school to Williams and taught at both HYP and top-tier public R1). We’ve got a lot of less-well prepared students from weak public high schools, but they are much hungrier for higher ed than my HYP students, and without the tendency to start partying on Thursday night that I saw at HYP or the propensity for trying to cheat their way through pre-med physics. The average HYP or top-tier SLAC student does better than our students after graduation, but on average they started half a lap ahead. I think that advantage would be reversed when corrected for family income, education, and first-gen status — and the reason is that our students are challenging each other, and not hanging out with wealthy goof-offs. Real DEI is a net benefit for the academic vibe — but it doesn’t work if you’re not willing to also give up chasing full pay students who didn’t get into HYP or Williams and trying to optimize test scores for US News, and instead commit to building a class out of people who really want the opportunity for education.

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haz_socialism?'s avatar

Teaching at Robberbaron Bloodmoney University (which is very elite in some fields like CS and statistics, and, weirdly, drama, but only middling in the conventional liberal arts), I see a benefit which isn't quite the same as just raising the median with the same content, but closer to what DinoNerd says about his (?) experience at Harvard. I can teach serious courses and expect the typical student to keep up. I teach a required course for juniors and seniors who in my department's major which covers stuff that at most schools is for MS students or first-year PhDs. We have class sizes of 100 and they _get it_, most of them. If I tried to do that at Big State Flagship where I did my Ph.D., I could probably find either 10 students a year who are as good as my current ones - or 100 who think they want the course but can't handle the material (yet, at that speed). For scale, my alma mater has six times as many undergrads as my current school. OTOH, my wife teaches in one of our humanities departments (after going through elite liberal arts schools) and that is very much not her experience of our students.

There is, I think, some real value for the most capable students of giving them an education matched to their capacities, like training athletes separately from gym classes for ordinary schlubs. There is even some social value to doing this, at least if you think the disciplines we're introducing our majors to are socially useful. It's probably not as much social value as the Directional States, but frankly we're a rich society and can afford both.

(Obscuring some identifying details to speak frankly about students.)

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